0:00I had an opportunity through the interfaith council for peace and justice here in town to visit Palestine. And I remember on the um you know they they
0:099 secondsgave us the experience of walking through a checkpoint um one of the one of the Israeli army checkpoints in the
0:1616 secondsWest Bank and and um and I realized on that trip that that I wasn't getting the complete the complete picture although
0:2525 secondsyou got enough of a picture that um that that moved me almost instantly
0:3333 secondsum and and I and I absorbed or I observed observed in myself two two things. One was that um other yeah
0:4141 secondsdifferent different than my trip to Iraq. I said this trip to Palestine is my fight. You know the sanctions on Iraqi children were certainly terrible.
0:5252 secondsBut as a as a Jew observing what the Jewish state with its armed militia,
0:5858 secondsguns, tanks, soldiers, APCs,
1:031 minute, 3 secondscheckpoints, blocks, roadblocks, all these things were just I I just um a
1:101 minute, 10 secondslike I said said that was this was my fight. Um, and B, uh, quite selfishly, I thought that, um, when the rest of the
1:181 minute, 18 secondsworld finds out what Jews are doing to Palestinians, the anti-semites are going to have a field day. The crimes against
1:271 minute, 27 secondsthe Palestinian people are being committed by a Jewish state with Jewish soldiers
1:351 minute, 35 secondsusing weapons that have Jewish religious symbols emlazed on them with the support
1:421 minute, 42 secondsof worldwide jewelry, organized worldwide jewelry. Yet to name Jews as responsible for this crime seems
1:501 minute, 50 secondsimpossible to do. We invite people to come into the synagogue. We invite them to go pray to a god and to to to
1:581 minute, 58 secondssoulsearch a little bit and to find out what it is that they're actually doing.
2:022 minutes, 2 secondsWhy why do they pray to the state of Israel in the prayer book? There is a prayer for the state of Israel in the
2:102 minutes, 10 secondsprayer book. Why are they praying in a room that has a foreign flag on the pulpit which we call the bema? Why is
2:182 minutes, 18 secondsthere a foreign flag there? Who are we praying to? Are we praying to a god or are we praying to a country? And I think
2:242 minutes, 24 secondsthat's the fundamental issue and which gives legitimacy to our venue to standing in front of Beth Israel which
2:332 minutes, 33 secondstranslate literally to the house of Israel um and um having a a foreign flag inside having a prayer to the state of Israel.
2:422 minutes, 42 secondsBut but but more importantly than that,
2:452 minutes, 45 secondsit's the the the link between Judaism and Israel now is almost like a permanent bond.
2:542 minutes, 54 secondsAnd um which uh in my mind needs to be broken. I mean, it's it's um for those people that think that Judaism is a good and worthwhile religion,
3:063 minutes, 6 secondscertainly Zionism tarnishes that. one of our men uh protesters carries a sign that says Zionism um destroys Judaism.
3:163 minutes, 16 secondsI'm not so sure he's right. Um we we we have conversations about that back and forth. Um we know for instance that in
3:233 minutes, 23 seconds1942 um the largest number of rabbis ever to sign a document 757 rabbis a fix their
3:333 minutes, 33 secondssignature to a document that said Zionism is the affirmation of Judaism.
3:383 minutes, 38 secondsSo the the issue of Jewishness, of Judaism, of Jews, of Jewish power is all
3:453 minutes, 45 secondsvery convoluted, but but it has boiled down to almost an unwavering support for
3:523 minutes, 52 secondsthis state that is that is um um for for easily for many definitions committing genocide against the Palestinian people.
4:274 minutes, 27 secondsum how did you get into this first describe what you're doing please and then tell me what's going on how you got how you what led you here
4:364 minutes, 36 secondsthe um well what we do is that we hold u peaceful silent vigils in front of Beth
4:424 minutes, 42 secondsIsrael congregation it's a um um conservative con uh congregation here in
4:494 minutes, 49 secondsAnn Arbor. Um Ann Arbor is about uh 12 and a half% Jewish and uh which is about
4:564 minutes, 56 secondsfive to six times the national average and that translates into um a lot of power in this town, more than one would one would expect. Um, but this started,
5:085 minutes, 8 secondsum, and I just spoke about this last week in front of city council about what got me into the business of protest. And
5:165 minutes, 16 secondsI explained to them that, um, in spite of people's claims that they think I enjoy standing on a corner and holding a
5:245 minutes, 24 secondssign, uh, nothing could be further from the truth. I really hate that. And uh I hate waiting for the public buses because you're standing there and as you're standing there, cars drive by.
5:355 minutes, 35 secondsThey can see you in all your glory what you're wearing. I can't see you when you drive by. You know, you're this little head in the in the windshield. So you
5:445 minutes, 44 secondshave this vehicle around you, this privacy bubble, people waiting for a bus or certainly people standing on a street
5:515 minutes, 51 secondscorner holding a sign. Uh don't have that don't have that luxury.
5:565 minutes, 56 secondsAnd the um um I had sworn this is you know 15 years ago I'd never do
6:056 minutes, 5 secondssomething like that. And then uh 10 years ago 10 years ago next month I um was talking to a friend and and
6:146 minutes, 14 secondswondering what I was going to do when I retired from being an mechanical engineer for 32 years. And uh he
6:206 minutes, 20 secondssuggested that I uh come with him to Iraq. Um Iraq at that time was um at the
6:286 minutes, 28 secondsend of about nine years of crippling devastating sanctions that our country had initiated these plans through the
6:356 minutes, 35 secondsUnited Nations as our front to uh to basically start crippling um the the country of Iraq. And um so we went
6:446 minutes, 44 secondsthere. He wanted to uh deliver some medical textbooks. And so we each carried a couple of books on the plane, went over there and uh delivered them.
6:526 minutes, 52 secondsUm and then we toured they had people that would tour us around the cities of Basra and Baghdad and Carbala. And um
7:027 minutes, 2 secondsone of the um the times that we were um one of the places we visited was a
7:097 minutes, 9 secondshospital in Basra. And hospitals were very um incredibly um sad places. The
7:177 minutes, 17 secondschildren there um almost 100% of them were on a one-way ticket. they never came out. Um there were no nursing
7:257 minutes, 25 secondsstaffs in these hospitals because the government couldn't pay the nurses. Um so the nurses fled and um the the
7:337 minutes, 33 secondschildren in these hospitals on beds that didn't have clean linen um were there attended to by their
7:417 minutes, 41 secondsparents or by their relations. So I was you know I I didn't think that I had much to offer in the peace community. I
7:507 minutes, 50 secondswas an engineer. We know about parts and pieces and forces and accelerations and stuff like that. We don't know about people. Um but my friend was encouraging
7:597 minutes, 59 secondsme to to to overlook that. And um and I think to uh to be effective, one really
8:068 minutes, 6 secondsjust needs to open open one's heart and eyes and ears and listen and take in and uh and then of course report back.
8:178 minutes, 17 secondsSo, um, I was in this hospital and I noticed that this one particular child was sitting on a bed and on the bed with
8:258 minutes, 25 secondshim, sitting on the side of the bed was what I thought was a terrorist because I had seen pictures of Arab men with their growth, you know, that um um is dark.
8:368 minutes, 36 secondsTheir skin is dark. I've seen pictures on the cover of Time magazine. I've seen films from Hollywood depicting Arabs as
8:448 minutes, 44 secondsstupid and sly and plotting and mean and um not to be trusted and would slit your
8:518 minutes, 51 secondsthroat. And so this kid had this terrorist sitting on the bed with him and I was taking a picture a number of pictures of this kid and he had the kid had like a lump growing out of his neck.
9:019 minutes, 1 secondIt was a cancer and most likely caused by the depleted uranium that the US was dropping on the country at the time.
9:099 minutes, 9 secondsEven under um Bill Clinton's time,
9:129 minutes, 12 secondspeople think he was such a a peaceful president, but no Iraqi thinks that Bill Clinton was a peaceful president. And um
9:209 minutes, 20 secondsand the um um and so as I was taking a picture of taking pictures of the kid, I was aware that this man was on the bed.
9:299 minutes, 29 secondsAnd uh at one point I looked over at him and and he was crying and um and it um it it it literally broke my heart
9:389 minutes, 38 secondsbecause you know all this stuff this indoctrination this that I had experienced this Kool-Aid that I had
9:459 minutes, 45 secondsdrunk was um was just pardon me expression for the birds. It was just not it was not true. What was true
9:549 minutes, 54 secondsis here was this man who was a father of a boy whom he knew was dying and here was this gringo, this American coming over and taking snapshots of his child,
10:0610 minutes, 6 secondsusing his child as a photo opportunity and uh and not really caring about what was going on. When I observed the the
10:1510 minutes, 15 secondsterrorist crying, um I started to cry myself and excuse myself from the room.
10:2110 minutes, 21 secondsAnd uh I I can't recall now if I went back to apologize to the man or or or not, but it just um it really it not
10:2910 minutes, 29 secondsonly weighed on me, it it I think it changed me. And I I told city council last week that I came back to Ann Arbor
10:3610 minutes, 36 seconds10 years ago and I picked up a sign and um because I just felt that um I just felt outraged that our country was
10:4510 minutes, 45 secondssupporting the misery uh directly that this man was feeling. And this man was not a terrorist. And um about a year
10:5510 minutes, 55 secondsafter um after that uh maybe two years, I had an opportunity through the interfaith
11:0311 minutes, 3 secondscouncil for peace and justice here in town to visit Palestine. And we went and
11:0911 minutes, 9 secondsum again that was a a toured exp exhibition expedition where they would uh uh keep us in a
11:1711 minutes, 17 secondshotel in East Jerusalem. a bus would come and pick us up every day and would tour us to see a knitting factory or a
11:2511 minutes, 25 secondsschool or a hospital. Um, we would meet some dignitaries. It was a what I call a highbrow uh tour that we that we took.
11:3411 minutes, 34 secondsAnd I remember on the um you know they they gave us the experience of walking through a checkpoint um one of the one
11:4111 minutes, 41 secondsof the Israeli army checkpoints in the West Bank. and and um and I realized on that trip that that I wasn't getting the
11:5011 minutes, 50 secondscomplete the complete picture although you got enough of a picture that um that that moved me almost
11:5911 minutes, 59 secondsinstantly um and and I and I absorbed or I observed in myself two two things. One
12:0612 minutes, 6 secondswas that um other yeah different different than my trip to Iraq. I said,
12:1312 minutes, 13 seconds"This trip to Palestine is my fight."
12:1612 minutes, 16 secondsYou know, the sanctions on Iraqi children were certainly terrible, but as a as a Jew observing what the Jewish state with its armed militia,
12:2612 minutes, 26 secondsguns, tanks, soldiers, APCs,
12:3012 minutes, 30 secondscheckpoints, blocks, roadblocks, all these things were just I I just um a
12:3812 minutes, 38 secondslike I said, said that was this was my fight. Um, and B, uh, quite selfishly, I thought that, um, when the rest of the
12:4612 minutes, 46 secondsworld finds out what Jews are doing to Palestinians, the anti-Semites are going to have a field day. That was a quote
12:5312 minutes, 53 secondsthat I wrote in my book when I went over there, when I came back. And um, I still feel that uh to to this day. Um the um
13:0313 minutes, 3 secondsbut going back to what I was saying about the high brow tour, I said I really needed to be on the street with
13:1013 minutes, 10 secondsthe Palestinian people to learn more about what was really going on. So about a year after that trip, I went back and
13:1913 minutes, 19 secondsI hooked up with a group called the International Solidarity Movement that if you don't know about them, the Zionists will convince you that they're a terrorist organization. And of course,
13:2913 minutes, 29 secondsonce again, nothing could be further from the truth. Um they are a um um a Palestine solidarity movement um that
13:3813 minutes, 38 secondsthat stands with Palestinians nonviolently and and supports um supports their resistance to the Israeli
13:4713 minutes, 47 secondsarmy which is continuously in their face be they in their towns in the West Bank
13:5413 minutes, 54 secondsor their towns in what they call quote Israel proper. And um um and so I went I
14:0214 minutes, 2 secondswent over there and was um asked to uh
14:0814 minutes, 8 secondsstay in this in the in this town um near Nablus and uh it was called the Balata
14:1614 minutes, 16 secondsrefugee camp. There was a house there in the downtown area. I shouldn't say downtown. It's houses in refugee camps
14:2414 minutes, 24 secondsare just like built floor by floor and sometimes they get up to two or three stories. This particular building was uh scheduled to be demolished by the
14:3214 minutes, 32 secondsIsraeli Defense Forces. Um which is outrageous on the on its face because here's a place that's completely in the
14:3914 minutes, 39 secondsmiddle of the West Bank. No threat to the state of Israel at all. And yet they were going to demolish the house. They
14:4714 minutes, 47 secondswere less likely to demolish homes if there were internationals living there.
14:5014 minutes, 50 secondsSo, we were asked to live in the house and I lived on a concrete floor for
14:5514 minutes, 55 secondsthree weeks. And um and one of the um um
15:0315 minutes, 3 secondsevenings um I uh late at night turned out to be a Friday, um which is important later in
15:1115 minutes, 11 secondsthis little short story. Um that I went to a sandwich shop and met a man named Muhammad Ali who owned the place. and he
15:1915 minutes, 19 secondsuh he and I were talking um and there were like three or four other Palestinian men um again,
15:2815 minutes, 28 secondsyou know, somewhat less looking like terrorists to me, you know, but still my guard was always up, you know, and uh
15:3515 minutes, 35 secondsand so the um the the evening uh was kind of late, 10:00, 10:30, and um this
15:4215 minutes, 42 secondsman, Muhammad Ali, who was the only one that could speak English, excuses himself to go to the mosque. two doors down, leaving me there with the other
15:5115 minutes, 51 secondsPalestinian men and we were sipping tea and u not talking but it was very pleasant as I remember and and in about
16:0016 minutes10 minutes um Muhammad comes back and I said well that was fast and he said well
16:0716 minutes, 7 secondswe're we're Muslims and we pray five times a day and our prayers are short and um and in fact he says Friday is
16:1516 minutes, 15 secondstonight and that's our holy day. He says like Sunday would be your holy day. And so, you know, I I looked at him who was
16:2416 minutes, 24 secondsa man who I was communicating with and he was beginning to uh get my trust and I his and um and I said to myself, well,
16:3416 minutes, 34 secondsI have two ways to go here now. I can either just say, yeah, Sunday's my holy day um and and carry on a charade. But I
16:4316 minutes, 43 secondsdecided for some reason to say, you know, and I remember looking over to my right at a wall and I just said, "This is probably going to be the last thing I
16:5116 minutes, 51 secondsever see." And I turned to him and I said, "Muhammad, I got to be truthful with you. Um, I'm a Jew and and Saturday is my holy day, not Sunday." And uh,
17:0117 minutes, 1 secondwithout missing a beat, he just smiled broadly and said, "Welcome to Palestine." And it was a very sincere
17:0917 minutes, 9 secondswelcome. And he went on to explain what he didn't need to explain. And he just said, "Anyone that comes here in friendship will always be welcome in
17:1717 minutes, 17 secondsPalestine. That's not the issue. The issue is people that come and take our land."
17:2317 minutes, 23 secondsAnd um and I felt that that was um such an important story to be told that when
17:3217 minutes, 32 secondsI came back from those three weeks in uh in Palestine, I um I made an appointment
17:3917 minutes, 39 secondsto speak with every rabbi in town, the uh the conservative rabbi Doberen, the
17:4617 minutes, 46 secondsreform rabbi Levy, and the um Orthodox Rabbi Goldstein. And uh in all three cases they listened to what I had to
17:5517 minutes, 55 secondssay, made some comments. Um Goldstein has in fact said uh we you know you're
18:0118 minutes, 1 secondnot portraying Palestinians in a human light, are you?
18:0618 minutes, 6 secondsYou know, and it was like really shocking to me, you know. He litally said that. He literally said that, you know, because I was asking them if if if
18:1318 minutes, 13 secondsI could address their convers um congregation and tell this story, you know, and and
18:2118 minutes, 21 secondsother stories too that I had about being treated wonderfully in Palestine about,
18:2518 minutes, 25 secondsyou know, the only crime that they committed on me was pouring down more tea down my throat than I could possibly absorb, you know, and um but there was
18:3518 minutes, 35 secondsnot a um a single incident. Oh, one one one one little kid kicked my book bag once. That was that was like the the the
18:4418 minutes, 44 secondsend of the the summation of the terror that I was exposed for second.
18:4918 minutes, 49 secondsOkay. The um um and I came uh you know I I spoke to the rabbis. I said, "Let me address your congregations. I think this
18:5718 minutes, 57 secondsis an important story that they need to know." And um and all three refused me.
19:0419 minutes, 4 secondsum um entry or access to the congregation.
19:1119 minutes, 11 secondsThe um the one rabbi that I had the most discussions with was the rabbi at Beth Israel where where we stand every
19:2119 minutes, 21 secondsSaturday morning. That's the conservative synagogue as I said before and it's the it's the synagogue that I used to go to. Um I think the the
19:3019 minutes, 30 secondsChristians have what they call uh creers. Those are the people that celebrate only Christmas and Easter yet call themselves Christians. And I was a
19:3819 minutes, 38 secondsonce a year Jew. I would go on Yom Kipur to uh fast and to be at the synagogue
19:4519 minutes, 45 secondsall day long. And uh and I would do that at that temple or at that congregation.
19:5119 minutes, 51 secondsAnd I did it probably very consistently for 15 straight years. Um and I remember
19:5919 minutes, 59 secondsum one of the years and if we talk about you know epiphies like that terrorist on the bed in in Basra uh Iraq um there was
20:0820 minutes, 8 secondsalso another epiphany of sort that happened to me and that was taking a uh a break at one of the uh Yom Kipor
20:1620 minutes, 16 secondsservices that I attended at Beth Israel somewhere around the mid 80s I'm outside talking to this guy that I had just met
20:2520 minutes, 25 secondsand at that time I was, of course, being raised in a Jewish home, I was filled with all the misconceptions of the
20:3220 minutes, 32 secondsrealities of what was going on in the Middle East. I had no idea what a settlement was. I thought a settlement
20:3920 minutes, 39 secondsin 1985 was a an area of land with a lot of tents that Jews were living in. I had no idea. And um and this man told me
20:4920 minutes, 49 secondsthat Israel was the fourth mightiest military in the world. And I said,
20:5620 minutes, 56 secondsknee-jerk, I said, 'You're full of You know, it's just this tiny sliver of a country in this hostile Arab world
21:0321 minutes, 3 secondsthat the Arabs want to drive us into the sea, so you know, I don't believe you.
21:0821 minutes, 8 secondsAnd he said, "Well, I don't I don't care much, you know. Um, you can go check it out yourself if you want." And he was so
21:1321 minutes, 13 secondsunmoved by my typical reaction that I said, "Maybe he has something here."
21:2021 minutes, 20 secondshere. And it didn't take very long to find out that Israel was quite an established military, if they were fourth most powerful or fifth or third.
21:2821 minutes, 28 secondsIt's it's I don't know how you get those those judgments were made, but I've read much in the literature and um and it's
21:3621 minutes, 36 secondsit was uh it was clear that they were a power far different than what I was led to believe. And I said, "Isn't that odd?
21:4221 minutes, 42 secondsHow come I have to hear this from a stranger that the rabbi didn't tell me these things? my parents when they were alive didn't tell me these things. Um,
21:5121 minutes, 51 secondsaunts, uncles, cousins, nobody talks about this, you know, and and I think that began a um a bit of a scratch and
22:0022 minutessniff, if you will, for me that every time I would scratch the surface of something that that confused me or made me want to think about something, um, an
22:0822 minutes, 8 secondsawful truth reared its head. something that I didn't anticipate, I didn't expect and frankly found it a little bit
22:1522 minutes, 15 secondsdifficult to accept and and um yet um and I basically kept silent. I kept
22:2422 minutes, 24 secondsworking and up until that time when I went to Iraq. Um I then retired at uh at 2001
22:3322 minutes, 33 secondsum and uh at the same time um underwent um
22:4022 minutes, 40 secondsuh open open heart surgery. So I I felt like I had like a a new lease on life as you will. You know, I I was one of those
22:4822 minutes, 48 secondssurgeries that was very successful and um uh and and having retirement looming
22:5622 minutes, 56 secondsmean meant that I didn't have any eight hour a day commitment like I used to have so that I could commit more of my energies towards something different in
23:0423 minutes, 4 secondsmy life. And this is certainly something different than mechanical engineering um peace activism. Um, and that is uh I
23:1323 minutes, 13 secondsguess that doesn't quite uh answer the whole question. I had uh
23:1923 minutes, 19 secondstalks in 2003 with Rabbi Dobererson at Beth Israel. That's the congregation that I attended. And um um and he
23:2923 minutes, 29 secondsreiterated his um refu refusal to let me access the congregation. He he said um
23:4023 minutes, 40 secondsthat u he had to protect them and I didn't know what he was protecting them from. Is he protecting them from the truth? Is he protecting them from me?
23:4823 minutes, 48 secondsDoes he does he think I'm going to physically assault anybody? I mean I'm you know you see me. I'm 5'9 150 pounds.
23:5523 minutes, 55 secondsYou know a heart patient. I don't think I'm going to be throwing my weight around too much. Um and um and and I
24:0124 minutes, 1 secondsaid, "Well, you know, um I'm pretty frustrated. I don't know what what to do. I mean, I've asked you.
24:0924 minutes, 9 secondsYou've kindly said no. Uh and yet you're right." Um I said, "What would you do if you were me?" And he said, "I don't
24:1724 minutes, 17 secondsknow. I I can't help you." And so I I came back here um to this to to my house
24:2424 minutes, 24 secondsum and u gathered some Jewish friends and non-Jewish friends and thought we
24:2924 minutes, 29 secondsshould um stage a um a weekly protest um at Beth Israel. It was kind of like a
24:3924 minutes, 39 secondsum a page from the New Testament. And and and and don't get me wrong, I'm not a biblical scholar. I know very little
24:4524 minutes, 45 secondsabout the Bible, but I do have this gut sense that that Jesus Christ taught peace and he believed in peace and um
24:5424 minutes, 54 secondsand he also believed in in confronting the powers that be when the powers that be were wrong. And so we decided to form
25:0225 minutes, 2 secondsa little group. Um we called it Jewish Witnesses for Peace. And since we added
25:1125 minutes, 11 secondsuh non-Jewish people to it, we added and friends at the end of it. So JWPF,
25:1625 minutes, 16 secondsJewish Witnesses for Peace and Friends is is our is our name. Um and in September of 03, we we launched our
25:2425 minutes, 24 secondsfirst uh vigils that was uh met with um um howls of protests from the Jewish
25:3225 minutes, 32 secondscommunity um somewhat from the Christian community. And um um and what what
25:4125 minutes, 41 secondsshocked me and continuously shocks me is that it that the protests the house of protests also came from the peace
25:4925 minutes, 49 secondscommunity. Um and so it's a um it's become a uh a journey if you will. I mean if I could take you back and show
25:5825 minutes, 58 secondsyou the signs we carried in 2003, they have a different tenor to them than they
26:0526 minutes, 5 secondsdo now. At first it was um uh signs like uh Ann Arbor Jews against the occupation,
26:1326 minutes, 13 secondsyou know. Um and then um and and you know that sign was taken from a a a group called Not in My Name from Chicago
26:2126 minutes, 21 secondsthat would stage weekly demonstrations and they said Chicago Jews against the occupation. And for a long time I worked
26:2926 minutes, 29 secondswith those groups and thought that they were um uh uh bonafide. But the the more that I
26:3826 minutes, 38 secondsbecame involved, the more I realized that that a lot of these groups were pretty much um uh false prophets and um
26:4926 minutes, 49 secondsand had some self-serving agendas that maybe we can get into a little bit later. Um but that uh that that I didn't
26:5626 minutes, 56 secondsrecognize that at the time at the time we started the vigils our um
27:0327 minutes, 3 secondsum the group that we wanted to approach were the congregants and the task we wanted them to perform um was to stop
27:1227 minutes, 12 secondssupporting um Apac, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. And um and in
27:1927 minutes, 19 secondsthat way we could go step by step from the the Jewish community to Apac to Congress to ending US aid to Israel. And
27:2927 minutes, 29 secondsum I thought that was a very logical progression that we actually did have a plan. We had an intended audience. Um
27:3827 minutes, 38 secondsbut um after um oh I'd say after two years of protest
27:4527 minutes, 45 secondsoutside the congregation on Washington Avenue, we um um we we determined
27:5527 minutes, 55 secondsdidn't take a rocket scientist to determine that they were closing their doors tighter and tighter against us. Um
28:0128 minutes, 1 secondthere is a um I I don't think Christians well know it, but um the the the the
28:0828 minutes, 8 secondshigh holiday season for Jews is a time when Jews out of guilt or whatever like
28:1428 minutes, 14 secondslike me once a year go to the go to the temple and uh sometimes you have to buy tickets because if you're not a member
28:2328 minutes, 23 secondsthen you don't have a seat. So you need to buy tickets and it's a way to raise funds. Christians pass the hat during services on Sundays and Jews don't pass
28:3228 minutes, 32 secondsthe hat on Saturdays. Um uh I think carrying money is forbidden or something like that. So um we uh um so I wrote a
28:4228 minutes, 42 secondsuh you know I I I wrote a letter to the uh congregation asking them for a form or I called them for a form. Send me out
28:5128 minutes, 51 secondsa form that I could fill out, put in my $70 check and get a ticket to Yum Kipur Services. This was I think in ' 04 and
29:0029 minutesum I got a a letter back and said we're not going to sell you a ticket, you know, until you stop these these vigils.
29:0829 minutes, 8 secondsSo, you know, that wasn't a full excommunication from the church, I would wouldn't think. But it certainly said
29:1529 minutes, 15 secondsthat um we're we're drawing a line here in the in the sand and uh you're not welcome inside the the church even on
29:2229 minutes, 22 secondsthe holiest day of the year. So, you know, I joke and I say they they commit a sin right on the holiest day of the year for which they have to repent the
29:3029 minutes, 30 secondsnext year. Yeah. So, um you know, and so after that realization around that time,
29:3729 minutes, 37 secondswe also found a um a handbook called the Hazbara Handbook. And hazbara is a Hebrew word that means propaganda.
29:4629 minutes, 46 secondsAnd you can find it on the internet. in it's um I think it's published by a group called the world union of Jewish students. It's
29:5529 minutes, 55 secondsdisseminated through the hill organizations and and they are everywhere. Almost every major university has a Jewish center a hill um
30:0330 minutes, 3 secondsthat's associated with them. Ours is very big and powerful in this town. And um the um
30:1130 minutes, 11 secondsyou know but but on page one of that Hazbara handbook it says that your target audience should always be the general public.
30:2230 minutes, 22 secondsAnd um the the synagogue where we protest has,
30:3030 minutes, 30 secondsas I've said before, has a busy street called Washington Avenue on there. And there's a little side street called
30:3730 minutes, 37 secondsAustin Street. And I would always stand on Austin Street those first two years because I wanted to appeal to the
30:4430 minutes, 44 secondscongregants as they were walking up to look at our signs, to think about what we were we were carrying. you know, our
30:5230 minutes, 52 secondsopponents try to um commandeer our language and so they call us pickets.
30:5930 minutes, 59 secondsYou know, we're not pickets. We call ourselves a vigil. Now, that's a small point and it might even be a throwaway point, but I think some, you know,
31:0631 minutes, 6 secondssubstantively it's important because pickets want to keep people out of stores, out of factories, you know,
31:1431 minutes, 14 secondsdon't have the workers come in to work while the while the union's on strike.
31:1831 minutes, 18 secondsWe invite people to come into the synagogue. We invite them to go pray to a god and to to to soulsearch a little
31:2531 minutes, 25 secondsbit and to find out what it is that they're actually doing. Why why do they pray to the state of Israel in the
31:3431 minutes, 34 secondsprayer book? There is a prayer for the state of Israel in the prayer book. Why are they praying in a room that has a foreign flag on the pulpit which we call
31:4331 minutes, 43 secondsthe beimma? Why is there a foreign flag there? Who are we praying to? Are we praying to a god or are we praying to a country? And I think that's the
31:5131 minutes, 51 secondsfundamental issue and which gives legitimacy to our venue to standing in front of Beth Israel which translate
32:0032 minutesliterally to the house of Israel um and um having a a foreign flag inside having a prayer to the state of Israel.
32:0932 minutes, 9 secondsBut but more importantly than that, it's the the the link between Judaism and
32:1632 minutes, 16 secondsIsrael now is almost like a permanent bond.
32:2032 minutes, 20 secondsAnd um which uh in my mind needs to be broken. I mean, it's it's um for those people that think that Judaism is a good and worthwhile religion,
32:3332 minutes, 33 secondscertainly Zionism tarnishes that. one of our men, uh, protesters carries a sign that says Zionism,
32:4032 minutes, 40 secondsum, destroys Judaism.
32:4232 minutes, 42 secondsI'm not so sure he's right. Um, we we we have conversations about that back and forth. Um we know for instance that in
32:4932 minutes, 49 seconds1942 um the largest number of rabbis ever to sign a document 757 rabbis affixed their
32:5932 minutes, 59 secondssignature to a document that said Zionism is the affirmation of Judaism.
33:0533 minutes, 5 secondsSo the the issue of Jewishness, of Judaism, of Jews, Jewish power is all
33:1233 minutes, 12 secondsvery convoluted, but but it has boiled down to almost an unwavering support for
33:1833 minutes, 18 secondsthis state that is that is um um for for easily for many definitions committing genocide against the Palestinian people.
33:2833 minutes, 28 secondsUm and so as as far as we are concerned as a group um you know we we don't turn
33:3633 minutes, 36 secondsa deaf ear to our critics but we welcome them to have a conversation. They're saying we're praying in front of a a
33:4333 minutes, 43 secondshouse of worship. We are saying in fact I personally say show me you're a house of worship. All you got to do is take
33:5233 minutes, 52 secondsthe flag out of the building. Put it in a closet someplace. take it out of the sanctuary
33:5933 minutes, 59 secondsand I'll stop protesting in front of Beth Israel congregation and no one's taken me up on that and they say I'm making a demand. Well, I'm not making a
34:0834 minutes, 8 secondsdemand. In fact, we don't that's I think one of the beauties of our vigils is that we are there. We are a presence.
34:1734 minutes, 17 secondsYou know, people ask me, "What's the point of your vigils?" And I say, "It's not so much a point as it is a presence.
34:2534 minutes, 25 secondsAwful crimes are happening 7,000 miles away from here. And we're here to raise public awareness, draw public
34:3334 minutes, 33 secondsattention to that. And people are welcome to come by and and observe our vigils and to see how much support we do
34:4434 minutes, 44 secondsget from the general public. After those two years, I stopped standing on little Austin Street and now I stand on on the
34:5334 minutes, 53 secondsbusy Washington and I try to look into the faces of the cars driving by to see, you know, if if someone's supporting us,
35:0135 minutes, 1 secondwe want to acknowledge their support and wave back. Um, and the the support certainly we get negative um gestures.
35:0935 minutes, 9 secondsYou can imagine what the gestures are.
35:1135 minutes, 11 secondsAnd um but the the support to um um
35:1935 minutes, 19 secondsnegative gestures always runs between 3 and 4 one. You know, I mean people people are getting people are getting our message. Um, people are tired,
35:3035 minutes, 30 secondsAmericans are tired of having their tax dollars um, go to a foreign country that's oppressing another people where they see
35:3935 minutes, 39 secondsenough oppression in the state of Michigan. They see, you know,
35:4235 minutes, 42 secondsdevastation. Detroit is devastated. You know, Benton Harbor is devastated. Flint is devastated. You know, that money's those monies could be spent much better
35:5135 minutes, 51 secondshere at home. And I think people are are are getting the picture. Why are we doing this? You know, why are we as a country doing this? And I think that the
35:5935 minutes, 59 secondsanswer speaks to to to Jewish power that not many people are willing to challenge.
36:0736 minutes, 7 secondsI have a um a friend of mine coined a a phrase um that I've tried to commit the memory and
36:1636 minutes, 16 secondswe'll see how good I do. Um he says that the uh the crimes against the Palestinian people are being committed
36:2436 minutes, 24 secondsby a Jewish state with Jewish soldiers using weapons that have Jewish religious
36:3236 minutes, 32 secondssymbols emlazed on them with the support of worldwide jewelry, organized
36:3936 minutes, 39 secondsworldwide jewelry. Yet to name Jews as responsible for this crime seems impossible to do.
36:4636 minutes, 46 secondsAnd um and I think that um as far as I know, we
36:5236 minutes, 52 secondsare the only group that actually uh targets and holds accountable the uh the
37:0037 minutesJewish community for their for their support. You know, I mean, logically, it doesn't make sense that this
37:0737 minutes, 7 secondscongregation is responsible for what Israel does, but this congregation supports what Israel does. It supports its legitimac its so-called legitimacy.
37:1937 minutes, 19 secondsIt supports a so-called right to exist as a Jewish supremacist state in
37:2637 minutes, 26 secondsPalestine. Um and so we are holding it responsible for its its its own
37:3337 minutes, 33 secondsum actions. We are holding it accountable for what it does. Um you can uh come with us on that once a year um
37:4337 minutes, 43 secondsprotest we have at the Marriott Hotel in near nearby Ipsellante
37:4937 minutes, 49 secondsum where the Jewish community shows up on their annual fundraiser for the for the Jewish Federation of um greater Ann
37:5937 minutes, 59 secondsArbor and they will raise $1 million in one night. But we're talking about a powerful group and uh and we have
38:0738 minutes, 7 secondsexperienced that power. I don't mean to get too far off base if you think I'm getting too far off base. Not at all.
38:1538 minutes, 15 secondsOkay. But if you have a specific question, why don't you let me Pandora's box to a thousand questions.
38:2038 minutes, 20 secondsWell, that's what happens when you do this.
38:2238 minutes, 22 secondsLet me start. I just innumerable things I want to ask you. Um one of them you say Jewish power. Now that's an anti-semitic can or canard. you class.
38:3438 minutes, 34 secondsCould you elaborate on what you mean by that and what what you faced for saying that and what it means to you and so forth, please?
38:4138 minutes, 41 secondsWell, the um um I can speak um to the experiences that that have occurred occurred to us.
38:5438 minutes, 54 secondsUm and the um um the the the one um item that comes to
39:0139 minutes, 1 secondmind is that um we have a uh Ann Arbor has a city council. Most towns this size
39:0839 minutes, 8 secondsdo. And um we came across a uh a letter written by a Dr. Barry Gross. I think
39:1739 minutes, 17 secondsthis was in after one year of our vigils. And this letter uh could well have been written by Tony Soprano. I
39:2639 minutes, 26 secondsdon't know if you follow that series or not, but uh they're gangsters. And uh and the reason that I was so enamored
39:3339 minutes, 33 secondswith the Tony Soprano series um was because if I could learn how gangsters
39:4139 minutes, 41 secondsuh operated, I could learn how the Zionist community operates, the Jewish community. And they didn't disappoint me. this letter from this Jewish man was
39:4939 minutes, 49 secondsdirected to um Mayor John Hefty who is still mayor of Ann Arbor and he basically said
39:5839 minutes, 58 secondsum look you guys you city council guys we've been harassed by this group of nerd duwells for over a year now and and
40:0740 minutes, 7 secondsyou've sat on your hands and you haven't done anything now let me remind you that we represent 470 families in Ann Arbor
40:1540 minutes, 15 secondsand we vote and we're waiting for your response.
40:2040 minutes, 20 secondsAnd the response from city council and and remember that these are elected
40:2740 minutes, 27 secondsofficials sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States, which of course has its first a
40:3540 minutes, 35 secondsuh the amendments, the first amendment is guarantees us free speech.
40:4040 minutes, 40 secondsAnd um and that's what our vigils boil down to. we just stand on a public venue and a public right of way for, you know,
40:5140 minutes, 51 secondsfor six years and we hold signs. At that point, it was one year. He was complaining that we were harassing them. Well, harassment is illegal in Michigan.
40:5940 minutes, 59 secondsWe don't harass. We We have been so scrutinized by the Ann Arbor Police Department. I don't think there was any
41:0741 minutes, 7 secondspeace group more scrutinized in Southeast Michigan than us. And um and so harassment is certainly not the right
41:1541 minutes, 15 secondsword to describe what we do. The right word is that we exercise our free speech. The right phrase is that we exercise our free speech. and the um um
41:2541 minutes, 25 secondsbut instead of upholding their constitutionally sworn duties, the city council passed a resolution condemning
41:3441 minutes, 34 secondsthey use the word condemn our vigils saying that it was harassment and violated freedom of worship or something
41:4241 minutes, 42 secondslike that. Um, I can get you the document exactly what they said, but I think that it's a a testament to this
41:4941 minutes, 49 secondsJewish power that that you asked me about as to what um what um how they can
41:5641 minutes, 56 secondsflex their muscles. Um, we used to have a police chief named Dan Oats and he and I were on good terms. Um, and he would
42:0442 minutes, 4 secondsattend these or he would create these uh, police clergy meetings and I would attend them
42:1342 minutes, 13 secondsto see what he had to say to the to the church community, the religious community of Ann Arbor. But, uh, his I
42:2042 minutes, 20 secondsthink his last year in office, he called me downtown and said that I was uninvited to this year's meeting, you know, but in return he would read a
42:3042 minutes, 30 secondsprepared three-minute statement that I had and which he did. Like I say, we were on good terms. Um, but but still
42:3642 minutes, 36 secondsthat I think that speaks to the power of the the Jewish community, the Christian community or let's say the non-Jewish
42:4442 minutes, 44 secondscommunity right out of the box, the Quakers, and you would think that they are the peace, you know, part of the peace community. They're very peaceful
42:5242 minutes, 52 secondspeople. And I know a number of Quakers in town. They're very nice people. Um,
42:5642 minutes, 56 secondsbut we had we had our sign. I think this is pretty funny. We we had our sign that we held originally and it has our name
43:0543 minutes, 5 secondson it, Jewish Witnesses for Peace and Friends, all with capital letters beginning each word. We were asked by
43:1243 minutes, 12 secondsthe the Friends meeting of Ann Arbor if we could change the capital F on friends to a small F because by implication,
43:2243 minutes, 22 secondspassers by could make the wrong assumption that we were actually the Quakers or endorsed by the Quakers. This
43:2843 minutes, 28 secondsis how um this is how powerful again the Jewish community is that others don't
43:3543 minutes, 35 secondswant to have any part with us or or of us. So they want to um um again it's the same it's the same
43:4443 minutes, 44 secondsthing. The Quakers give up their mission of truth, justice, you know, peace, equality.
43:5143 minutes, 51 secondsThey get thrown out the window when when faced with Jewish power. They cowtowile to that to that power. That's I think that's very regrettable.
43:5943 minutes, 59 secondsAnd why would you say?
44:0044 minutesAnd why? because they don't want to come across as um as as challenging the
44:0844 minutes, 8 secondsJewish community or associating themselves with a group like ours which openly does challenge the Jewish
44:1544 minutes, 15 secondscommunity. They are they are in in fear in fear of it. There's so many fascinating issues here.
44:2244 minutes, 22 secondsNow let me ask a couple questions revolving one of these many dimensions that is I know the terrain. How do you what
44:3144 minutes, 31 secondsabout the there are three essential terms that play here. One is Jew,
44:3644 minutes, 36 secondsone is Jewish community and one is Zionist.
44:4044 minutes, 40 secondsAnd how does that play in the politics of this? I because it seems forbidden to
44:4844 minutes, 48 secondscriticize the Jewish community and what what's your morality? What's your ethics in the range of of the individual Jew,
44:5744 minutes, 57 secondsthe Jewish community, and the Zionist community? What what what's your sense? Who who bears criticism? Who does not?
45:0445 minutes, 4 secondsThe whole it's can of worms. So,
45:0745 minutes, 7 secondswell, it it is a can of worms and it's and it's made um um a can of worms by
45:1545 minutes, 15 secondswhat I would call the Jewish community or Jewish power or the state of Israel.
45:1945 minutes, 19 secondsI mean, the state of Israel is very blatant. You can read their um um I'm getting yeah I'm not sure I can answer
45:2745 minutes, 27 secondseverything you ask your opinion interesting go at it best I can where do you draw the lines it's this
45:3445 minutes, 34 secondsgiant can of worms between any criticism you keep mentioning the Jewish community which is taboo in a lot of ways for a
45:4145 minutes, 41 secondslot of people and the way I see it seems like there's the individual Jew there's the Jewish community and there's the
45:4845 minutes, 48 secondsZionists where in all that could you discuss us the whole framework of what's going on with that.
45:5545 minutes, 55 secondsUm, let me try to do that for you. Um, the neighbor next to me is a Jewish man.
46:0246 minutes, 2 secondsHe's married out of the faith. He's got a non-Jewish wife and two non-Jewish daughters. But, you know, they've
46:1046 minutes, 10 secondsinvited me over to like Passover dinner over at their house. I don't celebrate Passover anymore, so I'm probably going to I may decline. I may not. That's
46:1746 minutes, 17 secondsthat's not important. He doesn't um he he's he doesn't go to synagogue. He
46:2446 minutes, 24 secondsdoesn't have a um I don't think let let me retract that. He does have a vested
46:3146 minutes, 31 secondsinterest in what he thinks is the security of the state of Israel. He's never, for instance, asked me about my
46:3946 minutes, 39 secondswork. He's never asked me any of the questions that you've asked me today. He he wants to remain
46:4746 minutes, 47 secondsum ignorant. Um he wants to remain um unknowing of what's going on because
46:5546 minutes, 55 secondseverything he's he's going to assume and he's probably right that everything I tell him is going to be painful or
47:0347 minutes, 3 secondshurtful to him and he doesn't want to go there.
47:0747 minutes, 7 secondsI'm not saying he's not a nice guy. I think he's a heck of a nice guy and he's doing something raising a family that I never did. So, I have a lot of respect
47:1547 minutes, 15 secondsfor Brian and um um but he's not going to be active in this. Is he going to actively oppose me? You know, I assume
47:2347 minutes, 23 secondshe would he would prefer if I took the Palestine flag down if I didn't um show my signs. So, obviously around the
47:3147 minutes, 31 secondshouse, you know, around the yard and stuff like that. um he would prefer that I would go away. And I think that's
47:3847 minutes, 38 secondsprobably the the the um the the wish of many of the people who are critical of
47:4447 minutes, 44 secondsthe work that me and that that I and the people that I work with do. Um and uh so
47:5247 minutes, 52 secondshe's not a member of the official Jewish community yet. He's a Jew at heart and he has this special part of him that
47:5947 minutes, 59 secondssays Israel needs to be safe. I somehow um need
48:0848 minutes, 8 secondsa a state of Israel so that I can run to in case things get bad for Jews in this
48:1548 minutes, 15 secondscountry. I've never asked him about that. This is conjecture on my part, but I've known a lot of Jews. plus of these
48:2248 minutes, 22 secondsare these are part of the um the um historical attachments that I've had
48:2948 minutes, 29 secondsthat I've had to break through to see a new a new reality. Um I I don't want to sound like I'm I'm a prophet or I'm
48:3848 minutes, 38 secondspreaching gospel, but I think that from years of indoctrination, I mean, in the next room over there is a recording of my bar mitzvah from 1959.
48:4848 minutes, 48 secondsYou know, I have never heard it. I don't I don't I need a 78 player I don't have but um it's it's there. And um um and so
48:5648 minutes, 56 secondsI was brought up in the same millu that says Jews are special. Jews suffer um unlike any other people. Their suffering
49:0449 minutes, 4 secondsis unique and horrible and we need a Jewish state. So everybody I think
49:1149 minutes, 11 secondsraised in the Jewish faith is brought up with that. And part of that is a um um a
49:2249 minutes, 22 secondsa realization, a subliminal realization that we are victims.
49:2649 minutes, 26 secondsThey were always downtrodden and we're always trying and pushing against a a
49:3349 minutes, 33 secondsbig huge mass that we'll never be able to overcome. We are we are we are victims. And um and when you find out
49:4249 minutes, 42 secondsthat that's not true and and one way to do that is to do what we do is to challenge Jewish power and see what
49:4949 minutes, 49 secondshappens. So I've told you about the Quakers, you know, reflective of Jewish power asking us to change a letter in
49:5649 minutes, 56 secondsour sign. Told you about the the um chief of police that doesn't invite me to a to a clergy um police meeting. Um,
50:0650 minutes, 6 secondsand I've um told you about a city council, a very compliant city council that bends underneath the pressures of
50:1350 minutes, 13 secondsthe Jewish community. Um, and so this this Jewish community um
50:2250 minutes, 22 secondsum certainly has the ability to work behind the scenes.
50:2750 minutes, 27 secondsUm, for instance, there was a man who drove his car at us when we were standing on Washington, swerved at us,
50:3650 minutes, 36 secondscut the wheels at the last minute to to frighten us, which he did. Um, we uh
50:4350 minutes, 43 secondscomplained um to the police. They did a very thorough investigation with their detective bureau of this man. His name was Eli Aeri. Um, Ay, I'm sorry. Avy.
50:5650 minutes, 56 secondsAnd um um the police detective bureau
51:0351 minutes, 3 secondssuggested to the uh Washington County prosecutor that charges be dro be be charged be leveled against this guy for
51:1251 minutes, 12 secondsvehic ve vehicular assault. Um you know the difference between assault and battery means I if I threaten to hit you that's assault. If I hit you that's battery. Um, so he never struck anybody,
51:2151 minutes, 21 secondsbut he still assaulted us with this car.
51:2451 minutes, 24 secondsAnd, uh, the prosecutor refused to press charges. He was never never charged. Um,
51:3351 minutes, 33 secondsanother instance, um, there's a uh, a man named Tom Saffold who's our photographer, our videographer, and
51:4151 minutes, 41 secondssometimes he would come out and and um um take photos of our visuals. This was
51:4851 minutes, 48 secondsat a time where there was a new police chief installed here um in Ann Arbor named Barnett Jones who um though he had
51:5751 minutes, 57 secondscoffee with me um he later um uh clearly sided with the synagogue. And
52:0552 minutes, 5 secondsafter this incident of having a congregant run his car at us, instead of holding the perpetrator accountable for
52:1452 minutes, 14 secondsthe crime, he he the police chief took it out on us, the victims, and drew lines on the sidewalk and said, "Now,
52:2252 minutes, 22 secondsdon't stand here, but too close to these driveways. Stand outside these red lines." So he he made red lines all over the sidewalks, had police observe us,
52:3452 minutes, 34 secondstwo, three police cars every Saturday for a while. And this one Saturday,
52:4052 minutes, 40 secondsTom was taking photographs and this huge burly older man um a guest in the congregation from Cleveland, as it
52:4852 minutes, 48 secondsturned out. His name was Abraham Seligman. and he um he came up to Tom who was taking this picture and shoved
52:5652 minutes, 56 secondsTom's I mean shoved the camera right into Tom's face. And I had been told by the police before about assaults. What
53:0553 minutes, 5 secondscan the police do? If the police don't observe an assault, you know, there's then oftenimes it's a he said, she said.
53:1353 minutes, 13 secondsAnd the police told me if they can see something, then then they can act. Well,
53:1853 minutes, 18 secondshe shoved this camera into Tom's face in front of six patrolmen and women and and I turned to them and I said, "Are you going to do something?" And they did.
53:2653 minutes, 26 secondsThey arrested the guy. They cuffed him behind uh and in fact the the foyer request showed that they double cuffed him because he was such a big guy. And um um though he was old, he was like 79.
53:4053 minutes, 40 secondsUm he was clearly uh could handle himself. and um he lived in like I say
53:4653 minutes, 46 secondsin Cleveland and the the prosecutor um wanted him to show up for one of the
53:5353 minutes, 53 secondsinitial proceedings that you have to do and he and his attorney didn't show up and the charges were dropped at that
54:0054 minutespoint. So another example of the of the power of the Jewish community. Now do I do I have any evidence that all this
54:0854 minutes, 8 secondshappened that A called B called C and said drop the charges? You know, it's just a matter of connecting the dots.
54:1554 minutes, 15 secondsWhen you connect all these dots, you know, I think a picture emerges of a very powerful group that's that's quite
54:2354 minutes, 23 secondsopposite to the to the image of the poor uh prayerful innocent victim that's that
54:3254 minutes, 32 secondswe think of as Jews. And uh and the truth is just opposite opposite that. Um the um you asked me about Zionist Um,
54:4354 minutes, 43 secondsand my definition of a Zionist is very simple. It's it's anybody who believes that Israel has a a right to exist as a Jewish state in Palestine is a Zionist.
54:5354 minutes, 53 secondsAnd I often ask that question at uh especially at at at peace conferences,
54:5954 minutes, 59 secondsat peace presentations because I want to know the person speaking. Which side are
55:0555 minutes, 5 secondsyou on? I think that's a very legitimate um um question.
55:1255 minutes, 12 secondsand we haven't gotten into that yet um into the into the peace community um because we were still focusing on what
55:2055 minutes, 20 secondsI've been calling Jewish power and you've been questioning you know so we talk about a Jew who's my neighbor um but um and we and we talk about my
55:2955 minutes, 29 secondstheory of of um being um ignorant I you know I've I've often said that you know ignorance is
55:3855 minutes, 38 secondsinnocence but willful ignorance is a crime I And if you know something is being committed in your name and you
55:4555 minutes, 45 secondsturn a deaf ear, a blind eye to that, I think you have some responsibilities that you're you're abdicating and that
55:5355 minutes, 53 secondsyou should be you should be called to account for. Um but so the the Zionist community and the Jewish community are
56:0056 minutesas one. I think anytime that that you look into the um the definition of of of Judaism u conservative Judaism certainly
56:0956 minutes, 9 secondsthe um the love of the state of Israel is central in conservative reform
56:1656 minutes, 16 secondsorthodox reconstructionist they all as a basic tenant of their faith no matter what sect they are support the state of
56:2356 minutes, 23 secondsIsrael that is core to their to their being and I think that's that's part of the crime because being part of Israel means being part of a supremacist state.
56:3656 minutes, 36 secondsIt's funny how the uh how our language is determined too that that you know in reference to white South Africa we can
56:4456 minutes, 44 secondstalk about white supremacism but it's so difficult to talk about Jewish supremacism when in fact it's the the
56:5256 minutes, 52 secondsother side of the same coin. supremacism is supremacism and that's the issue that needs to be needs to be addressed. Not um not end the occupation.
57:0557 minutes, 5 secondsThe u ending the occupation is a is is a um in my mind a very false flag
57:1357 minutes, 13 secondsoperation. Um unless people are very clear like we are that all of Palestine is occupied. But when you go into the
57:2257 minutes, 22 secondspeace groups um you you will find uh that that most of the peace groups focus on the
57:3157 minutes, 31 secondsoccupation from 1967 forward. They don't want to deal with the occupation of 1948 to 1967 which of
57:4057 minutes, 40 secondscourse was the original sin in the creation of the the the Jewish supremacist state. the the the the
57:4757 minutes, 47 secondsunwillingness to look at that as the as the core is the is the issue that that that most involves involves me. Um I
57:5757 minutes, 57 secondswanted to um uh talk more about the the the Jewish power thing um of this community that we have experienced. Um
58:0658 minutes, 6 secondswe had a uh a woman uh a a good friend of mine um Dr. Katherine Wilkerson.
58:1458 minutes, 14 secondsShe's a physician. She worked at a group called at a place called the Packard Community Clinic and um on the south
58:2258 minutes, 22 secondsside of town and um she was part of our vigil protest group. There was a time
58:3058 minutes, 30 secondswhere um this man showed up and part of the reason that there were a little distrustful of people that show up and
58:3858 minutes, 38 secondstake our pictures was this man named Gregory Fox who comes up to me and says,
58:4258 minutes, 42 seconds"I'm a freelance photographer. Do you mind if I take a couple of pictures of you? You know, and I know the law and he knows I know the law and he probably
58:5058 minutes, 50 secondsknows I know the law that says if we're out there in the public arena, we get to have our pictures
58:5758 minutes, 57 secondstaken. Our permission isn't relevant to to whether he can take our picture or not. But what he didn't say was that he was Jewish.
59:0659 minutes, 6 secondsHe didn't say that he was working with um another man named Aaron Auvia who has
59:1359 minutes, 13 secondsbeen an opponent of our vigils ever since we started. He's another Jewish man. He's in one of these Jewish
59:2059 minutes, 20 secondsfalse peace groups called Britc that clearly states for a strong Israel. Um
59:2859 minutes, 28 secondsso he is in favor of supporting a a a Jewish state. He's in favor of this mythical right to exist as a Jewish
59:3459 minutes, 34 secondsstate. He ergo is a Zionist. So this Gregory Fox is taking photographs of us every Saturday for nine months.
59:4459 minutes, 44 secondsAfter which um Dr. Wilkerson goes to her job one day
59:5259 minutes, 52 secondswhere her boss tells her, "We're going to have a new contract we want our employees to sign to continue employment
1:00:001 hourhere." And in that contract it said um I will not engage in any political activity either during work hours or
1:00:091 hour, 9 secondsafter work hours either on the premises of the work site or off the premises of the work site. And she said I can't sign that. And they said see you. You're out.
1:00:221 hour, 22 secondsAnd she got fired. So you know again can I prove this in a court of law? No. But I'm going to go to my grave believing
1:00:321 hour, 32 secondsthat the Jewish community of Ann Arbor was powerful enough to get a a protester fired from her job and she was a doctor.
1:00:421 hour, 42 secondsSo we have other people, we have school teachers, we have engineers that would stand with us that don't because they
1:00:501 hour, 50 secondsneed to protect their ability to um be a breadwinner for their families. Um again that's another another example I think a
1:00:581 hour, 58 secondsvery blatant example of how powerful the Jewish community is in this town. You yourself have seen those articles in the
1:01:051 hour, 1 minute, 5 secondsWashna Jewish News, 12,000 words written against us that at the same time they say we should be ignored and then they
1:01:141 hour, 1 minute, 14 secondsthen they recognize I I think what they're recognizing is that that we have some power too. And uh and and part of the success that we've
1:01:231 hour, 1 minute, 23 secondshad as a vigil group is that for that that short amount of time uh one one day a week is that we have kind of inverted
1:01:311 hour, 1 minute, 31 secondsthe power pyramid as I like to say where they want us gone but they're unwilling to do anything about it. We have said
1:01:391 hour, 1 minute, 39 secondstime and time again come and talk with us. We can end the vigils if you want. It's going to require something of you.
1:01:471 hour, 1 minute, 47 secondsYou know do you have any suggestions of what you can do? is they're silent. It's just not there. So, we just say, "You don't you know, we're not making any
1:01:541 hour, 1 minute, 54 secondsdemands of you, but I'll tell you where I'm going to be on Saturday morning at 9:30. I'm going to be in front of the synagogue again."
1:02:031 hour, 2 minutes, 3 secondsYou know, and I think that has in its own sense of power. I um I I don't go through a mantra, but I go through a
1:02:111 hour, 2 minutes, 11 secondslittle um um sit down with myself every Saturday morning, and I I say, you know,
1:02:171 hour, 2 minutes, 17 secondsdon't lose your temper when you're out there. there's no reason to lose your temper, you know? So, when a a guy says,
1:02:231 hour, 2 minutes, 23 seconds"You're an asshole," I'd say, "Have a nice day." I don't I don't need to fall into that that trap of saying, "Well,
1:02:291 hour, 2 minutes, 29 secondsyou're an too." You know, it's just there's no there's no necess necessity for it. We we consider ourselves,
1:02:381 hour, 2 minutes, 38 secondsyou know, big people.
1:02:401 hour, 2 minutes, 40 secondsAgain, there's 10,000 questions I have already, so I have to get to them slowly. I might have to visit you again
1:02:471 hour, 2 minutes, 47 secondsif you don't mind. But one thing I read read in the paper, the Washington Jewish News is that you were a Jewish
1:02:541 hour, 2 minutes, 54 secondsanti-semite. Could you discuss and I know I know about Jewish self-hatred. I know that living in Isra. I know all this stuff. Could you discuss that?
1:03:031 hour, 3 minutes, 3 secondsUm yeah, I I'd love to. Um if you go online there's a um there's um
1:03:121 hour, 3 minutes, 12 secondsI think a website called the urban dictionary and it it takes words and and gives them you know definitions and and
1:03:201 hour, 3 minutes, 20 secondsand certainly there are definitions of anti-semite in that but one of the definitions I really liked is that an anti-semite is anybody the Jews hate.
1:03:311 hour, 3 minutes, 31 secondsSo, you know, it flips it around. And certainly, according to that author that you read, Henry Brisk, he hates me, he hates us. And so, therefore, um, yeah,
1:03:411 hour, 3 minutes, 41 secondsI'm an anti-Semite, you know, but if you ask me, do I hate Jews just because they're Jews? Um, clearly the answer is
1:03:511 hour, 3 minutes, 51 secondsno. I mean, I've spoken about my neighbor Brian and, um, and, you know, I I have spoken about the respect I have
1:03:581 hour, 3 minutes, 58 secondsfor him. So, um you know, uh our our um opponents, our enemies would like to think that we're anti-semmites.
1:04:081 hour, 4 minutes, 8 secondsUm clear and simple because we stand in front of a house of worship. That's where Jews are. Well,
1:04:151 hour, 4 minutes, 15 secondsour our response to that is is quite clear.
1:04:191 hour, 4 minutes, 19 secondsThere are they are Jewish Zionists at this synagogue. Rabbi, their rabbi,
1:04:261 hour, 4 minutes, 26 secondsRabbi Dobererson, wrote an op-ed three years ago in the Ann Arbor News that said he can speak unhesitatingly
1:04:361 hour, 4 minutes, 36 secondsequivocally for everybody who attends Beth Israel. We all support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. So he
1:04:431 hour, 4 minutes, 43 secondsself-defined as a Zionist everybody in the congregation. And we read very closely in the newspapers and
1:04:511 hour, 4 minutes, 51 secondswe listened very with a tent of ear to our mail our emails. Nobody from the
1:04:591 hour, 4 minutes, 59 secondscongregation said um the rabbi doesn't speak for me. I don't believe Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. So
1:05:061 hour, 5 minutes, 6 secondswe know um that everybody in that building is a Jewish Zionist.
1:05:121 hour, 5 minutes, 12 secondsAnd we have though though very clearly we stand in front of we we hold Jewish
1:05:191 hour, 5 minutes, 19 secondsZionists to account, we've also at times held Christian Zionists to account. I've been to um at least two um demonstrations in front of churches,
1:05:301 hour, 5 minutes, 30 secondsmegaurches here and in Columbus, Ohio um that uh that that have these um support Israel Knights, you know, if they're
1:05:391 hour, 5 minutes, 39 secondsgoing to do something like that, then we will protest churches. So, does that mean we're anti-Christian? No. It means we're anti- Zionist is what that means.
1:05:471 hour, 5 minutes, 47 secondsYou know, we're anti- apartheid. We are some of us are anti-Israel. I'm anti-Israel. Um because Israel defines
1:05:561 hour, 5 minutes, 56 secondsitself as a Jewish state. And I think that if you define yourself as any
1:06:031 hour, 6 minutes, 3 secondsethnic grouping state um that um that I will oppose you, you know, if if you want, you know, if you
1:06:121 hour, 6 minutes, 12 secondswant to um have a state for, you know,
1:06:171 hour, 6 minutes, 17 secondspeople that wear red hats and nobody else gets any rights, you know, I'll oppose you on that. This this these are profound questions.
1:06:241 hour, 6 minutes, 24 secondsNot questions, I mean answers. I mean issues issues but I so let me ask you this this all cans worms all this is a
1:06:321 hour, 6 minutes, 32 secondscan of worms so you are pos the issue it seems correct me if I'm wrong but by
1:06:391 hour, 6 minutes, 39 secondsprotesting the Jews who are in that synagogue I mean there's a closure you're telling me there's a closure between the Jewish
1:06:471 hour, 6 minutes, 47 secondscommunity and the Zionist community and those that are part of the organized Jewish community are part of this there's no distinction is that correct Could you elaborate on that?
1:06:571 hour, 6 minutes, 57 secondsThat's that that's correct. I mean, one of our um vigilers says that as soon as this congregation Beth Israel would uh
1:07:061 hour, 7 minutes, 6 secondsdetach itself from the Jewish Federation, the Federation is clearly the you know the the um um the the
1:07:151 hour, 7 minutes, 15 secondspolitical slashfinancial support of the state of Israel. And of course it always it does good neighborly
1:07:221 hour, 7 minutes, 22 secondsthings too because that kind of masks their true intention. I mean they'll do Katrina relief forayas you know and
1:07:301 hour, 7 minutes, 30 secondsexpeditions and stuff like that to show the world how good the Jewish community is. But this Jewish community also by its own admission will like I say
1:07:391 hour, 7 minutes, 39 secondscollect a million dollars in one evening and spend 28% of that to support the state of Israel. I mean that's on their own literature on their own website. Um,
1:07:491 hour, 7 minutes, 49 secondsthat's not conspiracy information.
1:07:521 hour, 7 minutes, 52 secondsThat's just right out there. And that's what that's what they do. And that's their main their main thrust. So Saul, my friend who stands with us, um, says,
1:07:591 hour, 7 minutes, 59 seconds"Just separate from the Federation and I'm gone." That's his bottom line. You know, again, show us your a place of worship and we'll leave you alone. But
1:08:081 hour, 8 minutes, 8 secondsyou can't because as you pointed out, as you were questioning, there is no break between Zionism and the Jewish community. They are as one.
1:08:181 hour, 8 minutes, 18 secondsum as if to um stick it to us. Some of the cars that drive into the
1:08:251 hour, 8 minutes, 25 secondscongregation wave the Israeli flag. They think they're giving us the bird by doing that. In fact, they're just
1:08:321 hour, 8 minutes, 32 secondssupporting our own contentions that this is a place of nationalist support. Why would you carry a flag of a foreign country to a building and have me not
1:08:411 hour, 8 minutes, 41 secondsthink that you're supporting that country? you know, I mean, if you carried a picture of God or Jesus or
1:08:471 hour, 8 minutes, 47 secondsMoses in this case, okay, that's that's faith, you know, supporting a state is
1:08:541 hour, 8 minutes, 54 secondsnot faith. you me you said there's a there's a lot of things I I'm going to need I'm going to need to come back um if you if you're I can't game for but
1:09:031 hour, 9 minutes, 3 secondsyou said earlier that is Israel or Israeli policies um are essentially a gift for anti-semmites
1:09:111 hour, 9 minutes, 11 secondsand by the same token you that the Zionist community would argue or Jewish community whatever you would argue the
1:09:191 hour, 9 minutes, 19 secondssame thing could you discuss that the politics and what the whole mess of all that stuff well I I I think you're asking um does
1:09:271 hour, 9 minutes, 27 secondsdoes the actions of the state of Israel and the subsequent support it receives from the Jewish community add to a potential anti-semitism?
1:09:391 hour, 9 minutes, 39 secondsI think it does. You know, I don't think anti-semitism grows in a vacuum. I think that the um that there are causes and
1:09:481 hour, 9 minutes, 48 secondseffects. Um unfortunately, one of the causes and effects is that you lose family members. is I just lost a family member on Thursday. Not he didn't die.
1:09:571 hour, 9 minutes, 57 secondsHe just cut communications with me because I questioned exactly what we're talking about now in that because he
1:10:041 hour, 10 minutes, 4 secondsbelieves that anti-semitism does grow in a vacuum. The people just hate us Jews.
1:10:101 hour, 10 minutes, 10 secondsAnd I'm saying, wait a minute, why don't we look and see what Jews are doing? You know, why don't we look and and see how
1:10:171 hour, 10 minutes, 17 secondsreasonable it is for a majority population to dislike a minority population when that majority
1:10:241 hour, 10 minutes, 24 secondsfeels it's being manipulated fairly or unfairly by that minority population. What I mean by that is that,
1:10:331 hour, 10 minutes, 33 secondsyou know, of the 2% um Jewish population in this country, isn't it odd that our Senate is 15%
1:10:401 hour, 10 minutes, 40 secondsJewish? You know, and then when you point out that Jews are over represented
1:10:471 hour, 10 minutes, 47 secondsin the Senate and in the Congress, now people will say that's an anti-Semitic statement because it draws into the, you
1:10:541 hour, 10 minutes, 54 secondsknow, the the stereotype of Jews being in control. Well, I've shot a deaf ear off to those people. I mean, I look in
1:11:021 hour, 11 minutes, 2 secondsthe mirror and I invite I invite everybody who's watching this to look into the mirror and say, "Do I hate Jews
1:11:121 hour, 11 minutes, 12 secondssimply because they're Jews?" The answer to me is no. You know, I'm not an anti-semite, and you can call me an anti-Semite until the sun goes down and
1:11:211 hour, 11 minutes, 21 secondscomes up tomorrow, and I'm not going to believe you.
1:11:231 hour, 11 minutes, 23 secondsWhere does all this hostility from friends and relatives come from? What's the root? Um the um well the root
1:11:311 hour, 11 minutes, 31 secondsum that makes me smile. Um the root is uh is Jewishness. Is is is is it Judaism? I don't think so. I think it's
1:11:381 hour, 11 minutes, 38 secondsjust Jewishness. It's that that that that feeling that you're part of this group that you're part of this oppressed
1:11:451 hour, 11 minutes, 45 secondsvictimized um always fighting against the odds.
1:11:501 hour, 11 minutes, 50 secondsAlways us and them. You know, we have um um when we stand vigil out there and if somebody um gives us the index finger,
1:12:001 hour, 12 minutesis that the index finger or the middle finger? Um I say that's that's the Jew detector. Because Christians, if they're
1:12:071 hour, 12 minutes, 7 secondskind of disgusted with us for standing in front of what they think is a house of worship because they've been brainwashed as well, they go get a life,
1:12:151 hour, 12 minutes, 15 secondsgo home. But someone that does that is Jewish, you know, because they feel it so viscerally.
1:12:221 hour, 12 minutes, 22 secondsNot hold a sign that says Israel commits atrocities. That's an inarguable position to take. Israel commits atrocities. Now, you may want to say,
1:12:321 hour, 12 minutes, 32 secondswell, they're defending themselves or whether they're this or whether they're that, you know, and we can have that discussion, but when you give me the finger, you know, that tells me you're Jewish and you just want me to go away.
1:12:441 hour, 12 minutes, 44 secondsAt the bottom line, all the complaints that we get boil down to those two words, go away. You know, so it's funny
1:12:521 hour, 12 minutes, 52 secondswhen I stand in front of the federal building and I hold my signs, people will still tell me go away and I ask them, "Oh, then you you think it's better that I stand in front of the synagogue and they they say, you know,
1:13:051 hour, 13 minutes, 5 secondsdon't play with me or something like that." But, you know, it's a um um sure there have been there have been costs uh
1:13:131 hour, 13 minutes, 13 secondsto do this. But but um rather than than fall into that Jewish suffering trap, I will tell you too that there's rewards.
1:13:221 hour, 13 minutes, 22 secondsYou know, I get I get paydays. I get paydays when somebody says, you know,
1:13:271 hour, 13 minutes, 27 secondsI'm really proud of what you guys do. I think you you have a lot of energy,
1:13:331 hour, 13 minutes, 33 secondsnerve or or or honor to to do what to do what you do. Those are those are what I call my paydays. You know, I can't cash
1:13:411 hour, 13 minutes, 41 secondsthose checks at the bank, but I um but you know, that's that's as good as it's going to get in this business. You know,
1:13:471 hour, 13 minutes, 47 secondsI mean, this business is just a it just it you I pay money for the signs. I I do this. I pay gasoline to go here and
1:13:541 hour, 13 minutes, 54 secondsthere and stuff like that. And it's all worth it. How do you endure all the negativity on such a constant basis?
1:14:031 hour, 14 minutes, 3 secondsWhat are the how do you man all the hostility? Yeah. How do you bear that?
1:14:071 hour, 14 minutes, 7 secondsUm well, you know, I'm just frankly I'm just thankful that um that this isn't Friday because I think you would have
1:14:141 hour, 14 minutes, 14 secondsseen me in a very depressed state um most of the day. I had just gotten that email from my cousin on Thursday night
1:14:221 hour, 14 minutes, 22 secondsand I was um I remarked to a friend that I felt so low that um and and Friday was a beautiful day and I wanted to go on a
1:14:311 hour, 14 minutes, 31 secondsmotorcycle ride. Um but I didn't I didn't take I didn't let myself go. I I I think that this is way off the
1:14:391 hour, 14 minutes, 39 secondssubject, but when when you motorcycle there has to be a little bit of a um um positive driving. You know, you have to be a little aggressive. you have to be
1:14:471 hour, 14 minutes, 47 secondsin control. And I didn't feel in control at all. I I felt um like I just wanted to go away. So I didn't, you know, I
1:14:531 hour, 14 minutes, 53 secondsdidn't um take myself on a ride. Um sometimes I'm more successful at dealing with this stress some days um than than
1:15:021 hour, 15 minutes, 2 secondsothers. Um some days are up and some days are down. And um um overall um
1:15:111 hour, 15 minutes, 11 secondsare are you old enough to remember the rifleman on TV? Well, I remember him saying to his boy, Luke, I think his boy
1:15:181 hour, 15 minutes, 18 secondswas named Luke. That or he was. And he said, "A man's never wrong doing what he thinks is right." And I think what I'm doing is right.
1:15:261 hour, 15 minutes, 26 secondsSometimes I think I'm what I'm doing is wrong. And I have to like remant myself to say, you know, I mean, I have a picture of my parents on my dresser
1:15:341 hour, 15 minutes, 34 secondsupstairs and uh and I look at it um and I say, you know, I you know, you left me
1:15:411 hour, 15 minutes, 41 secondstoo early. I love you. I'm going to go out and do this that you may or may not have approved. You're not here to
1:15:481 hour, 15 minutes, 48 secondsdiscuss with me what I do. And um um but I'm going to go out and do it anyways.
1:15:561 hour, 15 minutes, 56 secondsYou know,
1:15:571 hour, 15 minutes, 57 secondslet me ask you, I mean, in your in your mind, then is is criticizing the Jewish community hurting or helping them?
1:16:121 hour, 16 minutes, 12 secondsI believe that I'm in this for Jews. I believe that unless Jews get their act together and to start acting in a moral
1:16:221 hour, 16 minutes, 22 secondsfashion, they are going to incur the hatred of the world. And I want to avoid that. You know, the bottom line, that's
1:16:311 hour, 16 minutes, 31 secondsmy selfish um um confession is that I'm in this for the Jews. They don't they
1:16:381 hour, 16 minutes, 38 secondsdon't believe this. They think I'm I'm 100% against them. I'm against the state of Israel. I'm against their support of the state of Israel. I'm against their
1:16:471 hour, 16 minutes, 47 secondspraying to the state of Israel. I'm against their sending their children and indoctrinating these innocent little boys and girls into armed services into
1:16:551 hour, 16 minutes, 55 secondsposing with soldiers into sitting on tanks into holding guns. You know, I
1:17:021 hour, 17 minutes, 2 secondsthink that's the crime that I oppose. I don't oppose Rabbi Dober because he's a Jew. I kind of like the guy as a matter
1:17:091 hour, 17 minutes, 9 secondsof fact. Um but but that never gets that never gets out.
1:17:141 hour, 17 minutes, 14 secondsUm this is a whopper of a question for you here. Um I have met atheist to Jews, agnostics,
1:17:231 hour, 17 minutes, 23 secondsorthodox. I've I've seen living in Israel. I've seen the full spectrum. Yeah.
1:17:261 hour, 17 minutes, 26 secondsAnd I've read a lot. And so let me ask you this. I've seen this. This is not my idea, but I've read not a comment, but I have heard it a pineind the opinion that
1:17:361 hour, 17 minutes, 36 secondsfrom Jewish sources that the Holocaust has been has become the heart of Jewish
1:17:421 hour, 17 minutes, 42 secondsidentity. And I ask you to elaborate or discuss what you think about that.
1:17:491 hour, 17 minutes, 49 secondsI um I smile again because I uh I have um
1:17:571 hour, 17 minutes, 57 secondstheories that I'm not not theories. I have opinions that I'm not sure it's
1:18:041 hour, 18 minutes, 4 secondsbeneficial for me to share some of these opinions. Um but I will um
1:18:111 hour, 18 minutes, 11 secondsum say a couple of of of things um that um um absent this Holocaust that you
1:18:211 hour, 18 minutes, 21 secondsreferred to um which I would say absent crimes against Jews
1:18:281 hour, 18 minutes, 28 secondsin Europe 1939 to 1945 um I don't think we would have
1:18:361 hour, 18 minutes, 36 secondswe Jews would have been able to cal the Christian community into granting Jews estate.
1:18:431 hour, 18 minutes, 43 secondsIt was a necessary flip that had to happen. when I talk to Jews
1:18:511 hour, 18 minutes, 51 secondsabout this and it's very rare um that um because they don't want to discuss this
1:19:001 hour, 19 minutesthis issue the um um but it's very clear and there's some writers that are speaking out now about this Norman
1:19:071 hour, 19 minutes, 7 secondsFinkelstein wrote a book called the Holocaust Industry which is how the memory of these crimes are used to
1:19:151 hour, 19 minutes, 15 secondscudgel and to silence critics of of the state of Israel. Um there's a um theologian named Mark Ellis who
1:19:241 hour, 19 minutes, 24 secondsdescribes the what he calls the ecumenical deal and that is that here's the deal. You Christians don't criticize
1:19:341 hour, 19 minutes, 34 secondswhat we Jews are doing to the Palestinians and we won't remind you of what you did to us during the Second
1:19:411 hour, 19 minutes, 41 secondsWorld War. They'll say during the Holocaust. um the um if you um um
1:19:481 hour, 19 minutes, 48 secondscertainly if you question any of the basic tenets of the Holocaust, you will be in trouble quickly. That's frankly
1:19:571 hour, 19 minutes, 57 secondswhat got me into trouble with cousin Jerry. I um I I because what happens um
1:20:051 hour, 20 minutes, 5 secondsI don't know exactly when this Holocaust Remembrance Day is coming. Is it in April or is it May? I don't know either,
1:20:131 hour, 20 minutes, 13 secondsbut I get sometimes a little flurry in my in basket of emails from Jews. Never forget never again.
1:20:231 hour, 20 minutes, 23 secondsOkay? But they never say never again to anyone. They just say never again to us.
1:20:291 hour, 20 minutes, 29 secondsSo, I've I've been very um let's say irritated by Jews talking this up as if
1:20:391 hour, 20 minutes, 39 secondsto say look how much look how look what victims we are, you know, and we deserve this
1:20:461 hour, 20 minutes, 46 secondsJewish state and we wish the world would leave us alone. I don't buy into that.
1:20:511 hour, 20 minutes, 51 secondsAnd when I asked my cousin um um
1:21:011 hour, 21 minutes, 1 secondwhy was it that the Germans hated the Jews so much? What was their motivation?
1:21:081 hour, 21 minutes, 8 secondsThat was it for him. He never got past those those two sentences, those two questions.
1:21:141 hour, 21 minutes, 14 secondshe wasn't going to tolerate the the possibility that Jews might have been in some way
1:21:241 hour, 21 minutes, 24 secondsum um in their from their actions causing a reaction from from Germans.
1:21:341 hour, 21 minutes, 34 secondsNow I've um late in life here I'm I'm taking a u a modern Middle East history course. This is a little diversion, but
1:21:421 hour, 21 minutes, 42 secondswe'll get back to it quickly. And because we learned just this past week that in 1947 there was a uh there was a
1:21:491 hour, 21 minutes, 49 secondswave of anti-semitism that swept through England or Britain, London. And um right
1:21:561 hour, 21 minutes, 56 secondsprior to that um the Irun, the Jewish um gang uh headed by Manakim Bean
1:22:041 hour, 22 minutes, 4 secondsum brutally killed two British lieutenants or sergeants, you know, and booby trapped their bodies. It was this
1:22:121 hour, 22 minutes, 12 secondsdisgusting vile murder that that these these people committed. and and I said, "Oh, so here
1:22:201 hour, 22 minutes, 20 secondswe have an action by Jews, you know, a Jewish gang in Palestine and then a
1:22:261 hour, 22 minutes, 26 secondssubsequent reaction by Brits of anti-semitism.
1:22:321 hour, 22 minutes, 32 secondsI think there's a quid proquo here. I think there's a a cause and effect relationship."
1:22:381 hour, 22 minutes, 38 secondsSo I don't believe and this again will people will say I'm an anti-semite for saying this but I don't believe that
1:22:451 hour, 22 minutes, 45 secondsanti-semitism grows in a vacuum and I want to know and I don't know what was the behavior
1:22:521 hour, 22 minutes, 52 secondsof Jews in Germany in 1933 and on or or you know I I you know was
1:23:001 hour, 23 minutesit the treaty of Versailles that was very punitive was it the fact that the Jews owned majority of the press as they
1:23:071 hour, 23 minutes, 7 secondsdo today here in this country. That's what I tried to point out to my to my cousin.
1:23:131 hour, 23 minutes, 13 secondsI tried to point out that um that um this is how I mean just just
1:23:201 hour, 23 minutes, 20 secondsimagine um you know I have a list of so many Jewish organizations. I mean I don't think you can name a Jewish
1:23:281 hour, 23 minutes, 28 secondsorganization that didn't support war in Iraq in 2003. the US invasion. You know,
1:23:351 hour, 23 minutes, 35 secondsMir Shimemer and Walt wrote a book. It's called the Israel Lobby, and they claim in the first chapter that absent the Israel lobby, we never would have
1:23:421 hour, 23 minutes, 42 secondsinvaded Iraq. It was very critical, you know, and now you see and now you try to find out who's dying. Who's dying in the
1:23:511 hour, 23 minutes, 51 secondsfight in Iraq? Of course, a million Iraqis are dying, but we always ignore that, right? Americans are dying. Well, you know, are Jewish Americans dying?
1:24:001 hour, 24 minutesAnd the answer is no. You know, so how are the uh how is the majority, the non-Jewish majority, 98% going to feel
1:24:071 hour, 24 minutes, 7 secondsabout this 2% when they say, "Wait a minute, we've been duped. Our sons and daughters are coming back in body bags,
1:24:141 hour, 24 minutes, 14 secondsbut my Jewish neighbor's son isn't coming back in a body bag because he's in medical school at Harvard." And um
1:24:211 hour, 24 minutes, 21 secondsand is that going to to um portray Jews in a good light or a bad light? You know, if we want to ignore that, if we
1:24:301 hour, 24 minutes, 30 secondswant to be like my cousin and just shut me off and not answer that question,
1:24:341 hour, 24 minutes, 34 secondswe're going to be doomed to repeat history. And that's why I say my confession is that I'm in this for the Jews. You know, that's the deep that's
1:24:421 hour, 24 minutes, 42 secondsmy deep dark secret. Um, you know, I mean, it's because it's because Jews are behaving collectively horribly. We can
1:24:501 hour, 24 minutes, 50 secondssee how horribly they're behaving in Israel. I mean, white phosphorus dropped from planes onto neighborhoods and
1:24:561 hour, 24 minutes, 56 secondsbabies, you know, killing 1,400 um Palestinians
1:25:031 hour, 25 minutes, 3 secondsum for what? Because they reacted with a couple of rockets after all these years of of oppression, all these years of dispossession, displacement,
1:25:141 hour, 25 minutes, 14 secondsterror, you know, I mean, it's amazing there isn't more of a reaction from Palestinians. And I think it speaks to their kindness as a people. that they
1:25:221 hour, 25 minutes, 22 secondshaven't done done more. Seems like I I answer your questions and I'm deviating and I don't mean to deviate. Um but that's but that's um if I haven't just go back at me and ask me again.
1:25:321 hour, 25 minutes, 32 secondsNo. Well, you're excellent.
1:25:371 hour, 25 minutes, 37 secondsUm let me ask, do you ever when you're beaten so low and in these times the highs and lows with all the visual and
1:25:451 hour, 25 minutes, 45 secondsall these you're standing up for what you believe, how close do you get to giving up?
1:25:521 hour, 25 minutes, 52 secondsthe the um the the um issue before the one that you showed me of the Jewish um
1:26:001 hour, 26 minuteswhat is it the Jewish news um is a story written by a former vigiler um named
1:26:071 hour, 26 minutes, 7 secondsLaurel Federbush um the daughter of Marsha I don't know if she talked to you about her daughter but her daughter used to stand with us
1:26:151 hour, 26 minutes, 15 secondsand now she quit and um frankly Thursday night Um I I might have been close to yielding
1:26:231 hour, 26 minutes, 23 secondsunder that pressure. And I I I said to myself at that time, I can see why Laurel did it cuz the the Jewish
1:26:321 hour, 26 minutes, 32 secondscommunity, the friends and neighbors can ramp it up so hard and so fast and it hurts so much
1:26:411 hour, 26 minutes, 41 secondsthat it is easier to give it up than to then to stand out there again and and do it again. and she broke and I have yet
1:26:481 hour, 26 minutes, 48 secondsto break let's say or I'm not I'm don't think I'm going to break but you you can't predict the future you know.
1:26:541 hour, 26 minutes, 54 secondsOkay. So my question to you is how uh in the socialization process as a
1:27:011 hour, 27 minutes, 1 secondJewish individual in the kind of Zionist umbrella what have you how on earth have you uh transcended that?
1:27:141 hour, 27 minutes, 14 secondsUm, you know, that's that's a good question. I I just think that the um the just the way I'm built
1:27:231 hour, 27 minutes, 23 secondsum is if you if you um lie to me, you know, if you tell me A and the answer is
1:27:311 hour, 27 minutes, 31 secondsB and you knew the answer was B when you told me A, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be upset with you. And and I don't know the
1:27:391 hour, 27 minutes, 39 secondsthe end of that upset. And I think that part goes back to that man on the steps of Beth Israel in 1980 whatever telling
1:27:481 hour, 27 minutes, 48 secondsme that Israel was the fourth mightiest military in my outrage that I had to hear this from a stranger. Now my um
1:27:571 hour, 27 minutes, 57 secondsI have a uh I have a friend and she says that um that that I was flipped by my
1:28:051 hour, 28 minutes, 5 secondsfather um when I was just a little gipper.
1:28:091 hour, 28 minutes, 9 secondsShe because I told her this story and I and I probably shouldn't have but but um we we were uh um I don't know eight I
1:28:181 hour, 28 minutes, 18 secondswas eight or nine years old and I wanted to be I wanted to try this fasting out for Yum Kipur with my dad and so he made
1:28:271 hour, 28 minutes, 27 secondsme a deal that that he'd take me out to get a bite to eat if I made it till noon you know you're supposed to fast all the way till sundown I can make it till noon
1:28:361 hour, 28 minutes, 36 secondsyou know so I made it till noon and he took me out and and gave gave me a cheeseburger, which of course is not kosher, right? And uh and my friend says
1:28:451 hour, 28 minutes, 45 secondsthat that's was that was the day that that that I got flipped. I just didn't know it. And it and it took another 50
1:28:531 hour, 28 minutes, 53 secondsyears, 45 years to incubate inside of me to to blossom. But, you know, that's that's a that's a good question. Every I
1:29:001 hour, 29 minutesmean, there are I'm not unique. There are other Jews, a handful that that that feel the way I do. Um and the um um and
1:29:091 hour, 29 minutes, 9 secondsand I and I don't know that we have a clear path, a clear solution. It's just,
1:29:161 hour, 29 minutes, 16 secondsyou know, I've had um um a new group of friends form since
1:29:221 hour, 29 minutes, 22 secondsI've um gone on this path and they have they have challenged me and and it was times where I would be very um hurt and
1:29:311 hour, 29 minutes, 31 secondsangry sometimes, but I I guess I just tried um not to lose
1:29:381 hour, 29 minutes, 38 secondsum my cool. Sometimes I do. I'm not I'm not 100% but like I remember um saying
1:29:451 hour, 29 minutes, 45 secondsto a man once um in a in a dinner situation that Israel was created as a
1:29:521 hour, 29 minutes, 52 secondssafe haven for for Jews and he pounded his his fist and he said it was created as a state. They didn't give a
1:29:591 hour, 29 minutes, 59 secondsabout safe safe haven. You know, why don't you read something?
1:30:041 hour, 30 minutes, 4 secondsAnd so rather than say, you know, screw you, I said maybe I'll read something.
1:30:101 hour, 30 minutes, 10 secondsAnd I read um um Lillianfield, Alfred Alfred M. Lillianfield, who wrote a book and and one of the chapters is Haven or
1:30:191 hour, 30 minutes, 19 secondsState. You know, you can read it and we can make our own minds up. But it was clearly driven by by state. It was clearly driven by colonialist impulses,
1:30:271 hour, 30 minutes, 27 secondsnationalist impulses, which I think are are terribly divisive divisive impulses.
1:30:331 hour, 30 minutes, 33 secondsyou know, uh, we're not we're not better um because we're from the United States than people that are from Mexico or
1:30:411 hour, 30 minutes, 41 secondsCanada. You know, I I think nationalism is just a very inhuman concept and and at some point probably needs to be quashed.
1:30:521 hour, 30 minutes, 52 secondsYeah.
1:30:521 hour, 30 minutes, 52 secondsBut you still have the energy to go a bit more beating you out, killing you. Yeah. What time is I don't even know. Oh, wow.
1:31:001 hour, 31 minutesOkay. Yeah. Another 20 minutes. How's that? Okay. and maybe a revisit at some point. Yeah, sure. Anytime.
1:31:051 hour, 31 minutes, 5 secondsUm I'd like to know, could you tell me the story of the peace organization? You you essentially got fired or something or Oh, yeah. Tell me what happened with that.
1:31:141 hour, 31 minutes, 14 secondsThe uh um in fact, I'm going to um I hope to go to their meeting tonight.
1:31:191 hour, 31 minutes, 19 secondsThis group called the Interfaith Council for Peace and Justice. And ironically,
1:31:241 hour, 31 minutes, 24 secondsit was kind of like the group that gave birth to me because they were the ones that that had that first tour that I went over there in 2002.
1:31:321 hour, 31 minutes, 32 secondsAnd the um the um board of directors sits above the whole group and underneath is these task forces. So we
1:31:411 hour, 31 minutes, 41 secondshave a racial and economic justice task force. We have a Latin American task force. And we also had a Middle East
1:31:481 hour, 31 minutes, 48 secondstask force which was far and away the most populous and active group that the Interfaith Council of Peace and Justice
1:31:551 hour, 31 minutes, 55 secondshad. And so after I came back and I joined that group um we had um
1:32:041 hour, 32 minutes, 4 secondsum some meetings and around the year 05 or 06
1:32:111 hour, 32 minutes, 11 secondsthere was the um Palestinian call for boycotts, devestments and sanctions to be applied against state of Israel until
1:32:191 hour, 32 minutes, 19 secondsit complied with um three things. the the equal treatment of Palestinians living within
1:32:271 hour, 32 minutes, 27 secondsuh 48 Israel, the end of the military occupation and the full and immediate right of return from refugees and their
1:32:341 hour, 32 minutes, 34 secondsdescendants. Um, and so this uh, Middle East task force, as active as we were,
1:32:411 hour, 32 minutes, 41 secondsand we were very active in planning events, planning protests, uh, writing letters to senators and stuff like that,
1:32:481 hour, 32 minutes, 48 secondswe voted unanimously, 13- nothing, I think the vote was, to um, um, to support boycotts, devestments, and sanctions.
1:32:571 hour, 32 minutes, 57 secondsAnd that was the that wasn't so much the straw that broke the candles back. That was the the brick
1:33:041 hour, 33 minutes, 4 secondsthat broke the camel's back. The the the board of directors is very much influenced by the Jewish community here.
1:33:141 hour, 33 minutes, 14 secondsAnd um um we went back and and did a little bit of research that uh
1:33:211 hour, 33 minutes, 21 secondsback to 1975 when the United Nations General Assembly uh passed the resolution saying that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.
1:33:331 hour, 33 minutes, 33 secondsZionism is racism. Um that the Interfaith Council of Peace and Justice took the Jewish side and said that's a
1:33:401 hour, 33 minutes, 40 secondsanti-Semitic statement that that doesn't it doesn't follow. Zionism is a is a good thing. And it was you know I can't
1:33:481 hour, 33 minutes, 48 secondsquote everything. I don't remember everything but they were it shocked me that they would be supportive of that being a interfaith council for peace and
1:33:561 hour, 33 minutes, 56 secondsjustice. What justice is there in Zionism? And um and so when when news of
1:34:031 hour, 34 minutes, 3 secondsthe um of our 13 to nothing vote came up to the board of directors level, they couldn't tolerate that. And we wanted to
1:34:111 hour, 34 minutes, 11 secondshave discussions with that. And I can supply you with a lot with the the the history of of the communications back
1:34:181 hour, 34 minutes, 18 secondsand forth um that culminated in the uh dismissal of the Middle East task force.
1:34:261 hour, 34 minutes, 26 secondsWe we kept asking for mediation um to have mediators come in. You know, that's a big thing in the peace community is that oh, you sit down if you're going to get a divorce from your wife, you know,
1:34:351 hour, 34 minutes, 35 secondsyou sit down and you have a mediator and he hears this side and he hears that side and he makes some decision. And they refused consistently to sit down
1:34:441 hour, 34 minutes, 44 secondswith us and have mediation. They just wanted to get rid of us. And they did.
1:34:491 hour, 34 minutes, 49 secondsThey they got us fired. um the um and that's because you're critical of
1:34:561 hour, 34 minutes, 56 secondsIsrael saying you're that's because critical of Israel and there was also a um um a feeling among
1:35:041 hour, 35 minutes, 4 secondsthe board members that the Middle East task force and the synagogue vigil group were one and the same. There was a little o there was a there was overlap,
1:35:131 hour, 35 minutes, 13 secondsno no doubt, but there were many there were members of the Middle East task force that weren't members of the of of the um um uh the synagogue vigil group.
1:35:251 hour, 35 minutes, 25 secondsAnd this interfaith council for peace and justice board of directors did write the vigil group a letter saying we ask
1:35:321 hour, 35 minutes, 32 secondsyou to cease and desist. you know, we don't think that your tactics are good or this and that and there's I can supply you documentation on that. And
1:35:411 hour, 35 minutes, 41 secondswhat happened to that letter for for for us to quit? We responded to that letter and said, "We want to discuss these
1:35:481 hour, 35 minutes, 48 secondsissues that you raise." I mean, for instance, you say, "Nobody else can do anything on this in this arena because of you guys." And we say, "Give us
1:35:571 hour, 35 minutes, 57 secondsexamples of that. Show us why this is true. Show us how you've stood up to these people or haven't." and and and and give us let's have a dialogue. Let's
1:36:051 hour, 36 minutes, 5 secondshave a give and take a back and forth in the discussion. We never got a response from our our questioning, you
1:36:121 hour, 36 minutes, 12 secondsknow. Um and so um so all this kind of led up to we can't tolerate these people anymore and we have to get rid of them.
1:36:211 hour, 36 minutes, 21 secondsIn fact, I just put out a vigil report last night that um um Michelle dragged up a quote from a a very powerful woman
1:36:301 hour, 36 minutes, 30 secondsin this Interfaith Council for Peace and Justice that said uh um if you guys on the board don't get rid of this Middle
1:36:391 hour, 36 minutes, 39 secondsEast task force, I'm going to have to re-evaluate my own association with ICPJ. Again, Tony Soprano, you know,
1:36:461 hour, 36 minutes, 46 secondssaid you don't play the g the game my way, I'm going to take my ball and go home. You know, basically that's what they were saying. Basically, it always it all revolves around that the power plays.
1:36:551 hour, 36 minutes, 55 secondsMay I want to revisit uh one thing you said earlier. There's a million things,
1:36:591 hour, 36 minutes, 59 secondsbut I'll come back if you uh if you up for it. But um this thing about the Marsha's daughter left as an act of
1:37:061 hour, 37 minutes, 6 secondsbetrayal. Do you know what drove her to that or do you have any knowledge of what the dynamics of that were or are?
1:37:151 hour, 37 minutes, 15 secondsUm and what did she say? What what was her accusation or You know, you can read that article. She doesn't give much of an explanation as to why she quit.
1:37:261 hour, 37 minutes, 26 secondsUm I I'm will ask Yeah.
1:37:291 hour, 37 minutes, 29 secondsI would like to interview her. I like to see if she'll talk.
1:37:311 hour, 37 minutes, 31 secondsOh, yeah. That's that's fine. She she probably will. Um I um um
1:37:381 hour, 37 minutes, 38 secondsshe I think she reacted to uh she admits to reacting to pressure from her father and her stepmother who were against her
1:37:461 hour, 37 minutes, 46 secondsaction, her activities in the vigil group. Um she is a woman who um who wrote a book called um uh life on the
1:37:551 hour, 37 minutes, 55 secondsguest list and it entailed very self-confessional. It was a um a very uh
1:38:031 hour, 38 minutes, 3 secondsrevealing book um when I read it and I was you know somewhat close to her I
1:38:091 hour, 38 minutes, 9 secondsguess. Um and um she was a is a musician and she went up to Toronto and she was in school there and she fell in love
1:38:181 hour, 38 minutes, 18 secondswith a rock and roll star and she was a classical heart player and she still is.
1:38:221 hour, 38 minutes, 22 secondsAnd uh um but it was an odd love affair because this guy was already um affiliated with another woman, but she
1:38:311 hour, 38 minutes, 31 secondswould tag along and in in the guest list was the nightclubs that he would be playing at her.
1:38:371 hour, 38 minutes, 37 secondsIs he a Zionist or something? Where does where does it come in? Where's the rejection factor of that? Oh, I'm I'm leading up to that. Sorry.
1:38:451 hour, 38 minutes, 45 secondsAll my stories are longer than the uh So, anyhow, this is and and this, by the way, is is just goes under the heading
1:38:531 hour, 38 minutes, 53 secondsof Henry's halfbaked theory. I mean you asked me why she quit in the base really is I don't you know the really really is
1:39:011 hour, 39 minutes, 1 secondI don't know but there there was a um um so so anyhow she developed this this
1:39:091 hour, 39 minutes, 9 secondsbook where she was very um self-revealing um you know was infatuated with this man
1:39:171 hour, 39 minutes, 17 secondswanted to be close to him he was already spoken for and married she would go up and visit him and his wife and their
1:39:221 hour, 39 minutes, 22 secondsbaby and Um um and um and I think that
1:39:291 hour, 39 minutes, 29 secondsum she has a a need for a father figure, a
1:39:361 hour, 39 minutes, 36 secondsboyfriend type, you know, but she's never I I don't know if she's had a boyfriend or not in her life. I don't know that. Um but anyhow, um when she
1:39:451 hour, 39 minutes, 45 secondscame back here, I know that she defended me uh personally um number of times.
1:39:521 hour, 39 minutes, 52 secondsThere was a time when a rabbi was writing some nasty letters, somewhat veiled threats, and she went and
1:39:591 hour, 39 minutes, 59 secondsapproached that rabbi, you know, and um um and and so uh what what I think in some ways happened was in the year 207,
1:40:091 hour, 40 minutes, 9 secondsthere was another man who was in the group and we were having difficulties with with him. Um, I have a I had a
1:40:171 hour, 40 minutes, 17 secondsfeeling that um um Laurel had strong feelings for this man who was also married to someone else. And I went away for that July. Um,
1:40:301 hour, 40 minutes, 30 secondsand there was a um this man had started a uh a boycott Israel group. they were
1:40:371 hour, 40 minutes, 37 secondsgoing to start a boycott of this co-op in town that that imported one Israeli
1:40:431 hour, 40 minutes, 43 secondsproduct and was selling it. And um I think something happened between this
1:40:501 hour, 40 minutes, 50 secondsman and Laurel. And I think in some ways there was a little personal betrayal
1:40:571 hour, 40 minutes, 57 secondsthat happened. Maybe he told her to get lost or something like that. Again, I don't know. But she never confronted you with the wrongness of what you were doing. Um,
1:41:061 hour, 41 minutes, 6 secondsno. She's never I've never had a conversation with her about about this.
1:41:091 hour, 41 minutes, 9 secondsShe when she left, she she wrote me an email and said, "Well, you guys could quit the vigils and declare victory because I think you've had a victory,
1:41:181 hour, 41 minutes, 18 secondsyou know, and just and go home." And I said, "I just want to thank you for all the years you've put in to the to the vigils." I mean, I I knew not to I
1:41:271 hour, 41 minutes, 27 secondsdidn't want to poke her. I don't want to hurt Laurel Federbush. There's no And I don't feel particularly mean-spirited towards her. feel that she's struggling
1:41:361 hour, 41 minutes, 36 secondsand and like I said before, I I can see sometimes why she yielded because the pressure can be so great to do that. But
1:41:451 hour, 41 minutes, 45 secondsum I'd be interested to to to have you um interview her and see what she has to say. I've taken enormous